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Post by orgowner27 on May 9, 2013 22:03:07 GMT -8
Ken, I attended an A/C update class this evening, and decided to fix both TE51's A/C before summer. wondered if you could share some suggestions or tips? Should I just stay with R-12 or convert to 134-A? If I convert, do you recommend replacing the expansion valve? I gave the yellow SR/5 a fresh charge of R-12 last year, and AMAZINGLY, it WORKED- but it leaked out in about a month. Never got around to leak testing, so not sure where it went. Are new parts still available? I saw expansion valve, drier, and compressor listed on Ebay for cheap, but what about suction and discharge hoses? Condenser? Evaporator? What setup did you go with? Thanks for letting me pick your brain! HA! Bill
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Post by Crash_X on May 10, 2013 20:45:37 GMT -8
ok Bill, you just opened a big can of worms with the a/c stuff,,, so the last real job i had was a radiator and a/c shop. (i have been workin on these dam things sense i was around 8 or 9). so i was manager of this shop for 9 years, had a crew of 3-8 during the summer. i have "logged" over 300 retros to 134a, (maybe another 100 uncounted) i have saved many r12 systems, retroed many to 134a, designed some from scrach, done car show quality cars. so not to pat my shoulder too much, but i do have real info on real world systems so, that being said, lets dive into this,,, my toy has run both r12 and r134a, there is good and bad things with both, the plan thing is,, r12, works better. thats it , all there is ,it is colder, works faster, a lot less load on the hardware (compressor), its not as much of a heat load on the cooling system as 134a. so i dont know how much tech you want (or comprehend), but i can get to the full theory, which is fairly easy, but in till you ask, i will try to not get to out of hand. oh, just to clarify,,, i do tend to get lost (for many diff reasons) i put oem a/c parts in the toy to start with, compressor, condenser, expatiation valve, evaporator, drier, and stock hoses. first gas (freon) was 134, it worked, but added a lot of other crap to deal with. temp load on the rad. poor duct temps. my toy was my rolling experiment. i have 3 gauges in the dash to learn what was happening. i run electric fan system (3 diff set ups). i have run so many TXV (expansion valve). one listed as "134a" valves, and oem r12 valves. i learned how to adjust the valves. i even added in a " suction throttling valve". i ran r12 for a few years but the cost (even at my cost) and as many times i opened it up, 134 was the best for cost, and i needed to learn 134 and how to make a converted system blow 40 deg duct with 100 deg ambient and not overheat the cooling system or brake parts. i have had new comp,. bloww around 500 lbs. had others that pushed over 600 and dint hurt its self. i got so much i could tell you, but typin anit good for me i started with a/c at the begining of the 134 crap around 92? went back to school and grabed a a/c class. so i got tons and i could give you ALL the options of running ether freon and how to make it work. "some"car retro so cold that i have had "un" adjust them. 28 deg at the duct hurts the ears so dinner is ready. PM me if you want and i will give you my number, but i dont have long dist calling, so you would have to call me. so off to eat. ill write more later crash_x
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Post by Crash_X on May 10, 2013 22:08:41 GMT -8
dam, just lost about 45 min of typing to you, now i got to remember all i said so i guess i have to start again to much good stuff not to
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Post by orgowner27 on May 10, 2013 22:37:41 GMT -8
I read your experience in A/C work, that's why figured you da man to ask! I am an auto tech by trade, so have a fairly good understanding of how the system works, so should be able to grasp anything technical you may explain- but I am no expert. I converted my AE86 Corolla to 134 by flushing out all the components and mineral oil, replacing the receiver/drier, and changing over the service valves, but didn't change the expansion valve. I feel the vent temp could be colder, but from what I have read, even in road tests when the car was new with R12, it wasn't the greatest. One magazine described it as no better than a wet rag on a hot day! HA! So, now I want to fix the TE51's, but thought I should ask you for suggestions. I know both of them have leaks which I have not even tried to find, yet, but if I find a bad component, say a hose, where am I going to be able to find a replacement? The class I attended last night was presented by 4 Seasons, and I asked the rep if they still had replacement parts for old Toyotas. I kind of dodged my question and said they carry parts for vehicles back to the 60's, but never specified anything concrete for Toyotas. I did, however grab their master catalog on the way out...2011 version. I am also concerned about the availability of R12 in the future. In fact the instructor last night said that now even 134 is being phased out. But hopefully I will be dead by then.... HA! Thanks for the reply, and any tips you may have to share! Bill
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Post by orgowner27 on May 10, 2013 22:41:17 GMT -8
PS we share a couple other things in common- CRAPPY typist, and CRAPPY computer skills? HA!
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Post by Crash_X on May 10, 2013 23:00:58 GMT -8
ok now that i made a mess of what i already wrote and lost it, i will try again to get it to you. so the standard statement goes,,, so depending on what the failure is, sets what has to be done. if the system just leaks with r12, but works fine with a full charge, then it is a lot easiser. most say you have to change the TXV (thermal expansion valve) i agree, but there is more to it then just that. ALWAYS!!!!! change the drier !! it is really the only filter in the system. (some TXV have a screen, but not all, so check for one) also the descant is in the drier ( the water remover) water in a r12 system makes hydro corlric acid, water and 134a just dont mix and causes high side pressure, almost as bad as air. flush evaporator, condesor and all hoses and lines. "IF" compressor is good, dosnt leak, has proper presures, then it can be reused after oil replacement. oil,,, there is ester and 3 or more pag oils. whole nother story. leaks, 134 has a smaller molecule then r12, so 134a leaks out faster. so any leak has to be fixed. other then comp seals, hose crimps and tube leaks. most all leaks a easy to fix. TXVs, i have used oem, new r12, new 134a, and learned how to adjust them. i found that any good right functioning valve will work. understanding that a valve self adjust itself according to what its probe feels. if it thinks its not cold enough going into the evap. it will adjust it self to the temp it wants. i ran 3 gauges in the car so i could learn all that was going on 134 puts a big heat load on the cooling system, i run duel electric fans, a bigger rad and a condenser from a 80-81 corolla. helps a lot. the oem compressors are good. i ran a used unit for 6 years on 134 before i had to reseal the shaft. but a good way to go is to use a Sanden comp. they are the standerd for after market and custom jobs. you have to get a "mount and drive" kit to hang it on almost any engine you want to order it for. theres tons more, but im half lost now, so after i read this again, i will have lots more to tell you later crash_x
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Post by orgowner27 on May 11, 2013 7:44:57 GMT -8
good stuff!.... THANKS! I am going shopping at the junk yard today for a while and will anxiously check back in for your updates when I get back-
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Post by Crash_X on May 11, 2013 13:25:36 GMT -8
Hi Bill, must be nice, i used to love haveing a saterday at the yard. well still lots to cover, r12 is hard to get and will get harder. as it is now, only lic. tech. can buy r12. 134a will sooner or later be the same way. If you can afford r12, and have NO LEAKS! its the most effective cooling freon. i will use r12 in the 76 (only cause i have some stashed) but it cost and not everyone can get it as far as freon "blends" go, i have always stayed away from them. i havent worked in the trade for a while now, so some things have changed and i sure some of the blends have been worked out so some might work ok? r12 is the best for cooling, but cost so dam much, $150-300 per charge. 134 works good in oem designed systems. but for retro, there are some extra things to help the system. main thing is air over the condensor. if your running a clutch fan systen, you have to have a 100% fan clutch. if it is a little weak, it might not move enough air. i like electric fans cause i have control of when they are on. next you want to force all the air flow you can through the cores, so use foam tape, rubber flaps,sheet matel or what ever to fill the gaps between the rad. and condenser, rad core suport or any place you can force air flow. including going as far forward as behind grill. 134 lives at a much higher, high side pressures then r12. 300-450 lbs in a oem car in not uncommon. i try to keep it under 200-250. so presure/temp relationship,,,, a 300lbs hi side is around 180-240 deg (been to long to remember and my charts or down the hill) air that is dumped on the cooling system. so its like instantly out in the desert. if you cooling system isnt 100%, 134 could kill it from fast overheat of rad. ok im going to post this before i loose it like last night more class later ken
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Post by Bill on May 11, 2013 22:24:47 GMT -8
ALL excellent points!!! Now that you mention it, the fan clutch on my sons car is weak. I think I can find an oem style replacement, but was thinking maybe one of those "flex fans"? While electric, manual controlled fans would be good for you and me, I don't trust my kid to know when he should run it. I have had a flex fan on my 73 for years, and seems to work great, and ALWAYS pulls air, cause its bolted directly to the water pump. I like your suggestion to block the gaps for more airflow to the condenser- excellent tip! I also stay away from "blends" and refrigerants with "sealers" in them. Once I fix the leak(s), both cars will have only nice, fresh, pure refrigerant and the proper type and quantity of oil. I suppose the first step, for me, is....find the leaks. Then, begin the hunt for replacement parts, if needed, and THEN, decide if I am gonna convert or not. Lastly, fine tune the system as you suggest. I'm sure before I am finished I will become a pest, and have a million more questions for ya. In the meantime, I will look forward to reading anything you care to share. THANKS, Ken!
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Post by Crash_X on May 11, 2013 23:35:43 GMT -8
Bill, happy im not boring you or telling you stuff you dont want to hear. theres tons to cover, and i have forgotten more then i remember. no matter which freon you choose, i would change the expansion valve (in less your system works "super" good and just leaks), drier always. oil, if retroing a used oem r12 comp. i liked ester. if starting with a new oem 134 comp. use factory recomended pag. r12 has to have mineral oil, 134 isnt suppose to work with mineral, but i have seen systems that vacuumed and had 134 dumped in it. some worked, but most didnt. leaks are mostly easy to find, when freon leaks it carrys oil with it. so it collects fine dust. look at the center of your comp. clutch and if there is damp dirt, then the shaft seal is failing. some times it shows up behind the clutch coil. hose fittings can be flare or o-ring. if they are clean and dry. they should be ok. hose crimps fail, same damp to wet dirt and oil. my shop had a nice "Tubes and Hoses" set up and i could make almost any thing i needed. but some hoses and line are still out there . but hard to find some things for our older cars r134a charge amount is lower then r12. i used 60-80% of r12 charge. each system is a little bit diff. and as much as 1-2 oz. freon can cause poor duct temp and hi side problems my electric fan systems have a auto and on. that way customers dont shoot them selves in the foot. flex fans are ok. but use some engine power to spin them all the time. clutch fans work good well, when they work right. you can still get them. Hayden make good clutches. stay away from napa "cool clutch", and any centrifugal types. only good thermal clutches. filling the air gaps is a must do! or use a pusher fan on front of condessor. so what did you find at the yard today? and thanks again for having interest and involvement in the forum. this is what its for ken
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Post by orgowner27 on May 12, 2013 18:21:26 GMT -8
No, thank YOU, sir for sharing your expertise, AND making this forum!! All of your info is GREAT, and I should print it out for future reference! Generally, I always try and stay with original parts and design, but when you mentioned the additional heat load on the cooling system by retroing to 134, I thought a Flex Fan may offer an improvement over the original fan clutch, and keep my kid outta trouble from forgetting to turn on an electric. I replaced my worn fan clutch on the GT-S with a Hayden unit, but the box it came in looked like it was sitting on a shelf for YEARS! No problem with the part, though, OR overheating with 134 in the system. I saw 2 hoses listed on ebay, from a good seller I had done business with in the past, but they were obviously pulled off a car in a junkyard. If I need to replace anything, I want NEW! Is your shop still in business? If so, I would gladly be a customer for a couple new hoses!. There is a shop near my work that specializes in hydraulic and pneumatic hoses, but they will NOT touch A/C hoses- don't know why... Anyway, my trip to the Pick and Pull yard was delayed after I looked at a stack of monthly bills that needed paying...sigh... A friend emailed me to tell me of a 72 Corolla wagon at the Windsor yard, and that's the one I want to check out, but don't really need anything urgently. Knock on wood, the "fleet" is all "in service" at the moment.... HA! Probably head out there next weekend to see if theres anything left. "Chat" with ya later! Bill PS Congrats to your daughter on her graduation! Good to know not ALL of them are slackers! HA!
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Post by Crash_X on May 13, 2013 17:34:02 GMT -8
Thanks Bill, but this is the reson for this forum, is for ALL of us to share what we know, what we have done, what we have Fu*((%$#! up, and how we fix what we have done. this is for all,,, if you want to print, share,or show,,, that is AWESOME. I know i have a lot to say,, (the more adjusted i get, the more i tend to ramble ) so i will post this so i dont lose it ken
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Post by Crash_X on May 13, 2013 18:28:45 GMT -8
out to lunch right now,, min. for adjust ment and i will try to answer so of the ? asked!!! so if you print, share or what ever, all i ask is you put my sad little name on it. well lets see if i can back track to answer some of the things you have asked. they have been good points and should be addressed. ok so this hurts but i have been sending people to them for years. it is a good shop, i just got screwed for other resons. but that dont matter "Servicenter Radiator and auto air" auburn cailf. used to know all the phone #s by heart. but thats been 10 years? but it was a family owened shop sense 1963, that has had heart to do good work. 110 borland ave auburn they have a "tubes and hoses" franchise. and should be able to do most any hose or any tube or line. alum, steel, stainless, cooper, a/c, hydraulic, power steering, pneumatic, water, steam,,,,,,,, almost all of it. i was there for 9 years, we had tubes and hoses for 6 of that. neat stuff and i did some almost wild things there so, with your oem hose or line, take that to them, (if a fitting turns, it HAS to be indexed to the hose so it can be crimped right, so YOU mark it). they can remake a copy of your sample. even custom hoses, ( flare on one end o-ring on other,, or block fitting (on our newer stuff)) they also stock or can get fast almost any a/c or cooling part you will need. belts and hoses !!!! napa would call us for belts and hoses they didnt stock we had ALOT of innovatory!! i will try to post a pic of the shop,
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Post by Crash_X on May 13, 2013 18:39:42 GMT -8
out to lunch right now,, min. for adjust ment and i will try to answer so of the ? asked!!! so if you print, share or what ever, all i ask is you put my sad little name on it. well lets see if i can back track to answer some of the things you have asked. they have been good points and should be addressed. ok so this hurts but i have been sending people to them for years. it is a good shop, i just got screwed for other resons. but that dont matter "Servicenter Radiator and auto air" auburn cailf. used to know all the phone #s by heart. but thats been 10 years? but it was a family owened shop sense 1963, that has had heart to do good work. 110 borland ave auburn they have a "tubes and hoses" franchise. and should be able to do most any hose or any tube or line. alum, steel, stainless, cooper, a/c, hydraulic, power steering, pneumatic, water, steam,,,,,,,, almost all of it. i was there for 9 years, we had tubes and hoses for 6 of that. neat stuff and i did some almost wild things there so, with your oem hose or line, take that to them, (if a fitting turns, it HAS to be indexed to the hose so it can be crimped right, so YOU mark it). they can remake a copy of your sample. even custom hoses, ( flare on one end o-ring on other,, or block fitting (on our newer stuff)) they also stock or can get fast almost any a/c or cooling part you will need. belts and hoses !!!! napa would call us for belts and hoses they didnt stock we had ALOT of innovatory!! i will try to post a pic of the shop,
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Post by Crash_X on May 13, 2013 18:57:23 GMT -8
this is my old girl in the shop. blue box and red cart are mine you can see all the hoses and rads and condessors behind my car. and that is less then 1/2 of one wall and not enough to count of the other wall. this was my tubes and hoses station spent alot of hours there
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